The Foundations We Lay
Foundations We Lay explores the patterns, pressures, and life experiences that influence how we show up in our relationships—with ourselves, our partners, and our families. Each episode helps you take a closer look at what may be shaping your choices, reactions, and connections. Through thoughtful conversation and clear insight, the podcast helps you strengthen the foundations that support healthier, more stable relationships moving forward.
The Foundations We Lay
You're Doing it Wrong - What Forgiveness Really Is
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So many of us know about forgiveness but do we actually know how to forgive?
Is forgiveness the same as letting it go?
In this episode, Tahtianna, LMSW and John Dunn III go into a much needed conversation on forgiveness and how we can apply it to our everyday lives.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Foundations We Lay. I am Tatiana, and in this space, we discuss everything that impacts how we operate with ourselves and also how we operate with others in our relationships. And today we have a very, very special guest. His name is John Dunn III. And John and I met a few years back, but I would love to give him the space and opportunity to introduce himself and also get into the topic that we're discussing today, which is forgiveness. So, John, I'm going to give you the floor.
SPEAKER_02Hello, everyone. As you mentioned, my name is John. I am from Mancefield, Ohio. Um, and uh me and Tati, we met uh about a short few years ago um from um a small church in Columbus, Ohio. And um yeah, it's been uh interesting journey, but um the Lord allowed us to reconnect, and um it's been a um great connection, and I'm excited to be on today, excited to see what Tosi's doing. Love the content, and I'm excited about um today's topic that we're gonna discuss.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And if you guys do not know, John is my very first guest. So if y'all can, wherever y'all are, wherever y'all are gonna be listening, can it let's just give us a hand clap uh because this is this is groundbreaking for us.
SPEAKER_02So I am humbled.
SPEAKER_00Yes, we're happy to have you guys.
SPEAKER_02In fact, this is the first time I've ever been on a podcast. So I am humbled. I've never been on a podcast before, so yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think he's ready, y'all.
SPEAKER_00All right, so let's get straight into it. So we're talking about forgiveness today, but why even talk about this? I feel like we we hear about it so much, um, about what it is, how it can impact us, and also our relationships. You would think because we hear about it so much that we probably have a good grasp on forgiveness, but why do you feel like this is something we really need to kind of tackle today?
SPEAKER_02Um, because we don't do it. Period point blank. We we do not do it as we think we should, and you think we ought to uh because we're believers, but because um it is a topic um that is widely talked about, that means it's an area that we struggle with the most. Um, even with how anointed we are, even with how uh gifted we are, even with how much we praise, dance, and shout, um, this is an area that um we struggle with a lot because we're human. And so um, yeah, this is definitely a space um that God has to prick our hearts on the most is the area of forgiveness. So um it's definitely something that needs to be uh talked about a lot, and it's an area that not just needs to be talked about but needs to be applied more and more in the everyday life of the belief.
SPEAKER_00That is so true. The part where you said um, because we're human, you know, stood out to me too. That means that of course we're gonna be falling short, uh, which also ties into the other part, meaning that we do have to do our part and not just listen and get information, but to apply the information that we have received regarding this topic. Um, so I do want to touch on that afterwards, but first, how would you even define or explain what forgiveness is? Because as said before, we hear about it all the time, but what does it really mean to forgive?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so um I looked it up myself. Um to forgive by definition means to cease to feel resentment against an offender. So it literally um means to not even feel resentment or not even feel um any animosity against an offender. And I want to even add this not even um rehearse the offense itself. Oftentimes we um still hold on to the offense and even hold on to um the offender at times. Um, and the only reason why we do that is because we feel entitled to the hurt. We feel entitled to um the offense. We feel entitled to listen, I feel certain kind of way about what had happened. This happened to me, that happened to me, this hurt me. And I feel a right to hold on to that hurt. I feel a right to hold on to that offense. And so what happens is um we feel like they owe me. And another um definition is to release the debt, to release the payment. And so what happens is we literally keep that record of wrong. When scripture talks about how um real love doesn't keep records of wrongs. Um but if we look at our lives, there are so many times in our lives where we have fallen short. There's so many times when we have sinned against our Lord and Savior. And so if um we kept that same energy, or if the Lord Jesus Christ kept that same energy with us, um, how much would our lives be so completely messed up, even to the point of us still being on our way to a burning hell? So, with that being said, to forgive literally means to cease the resentment, to release that debt.
SPEAKER_00I don't even know where to start because you said so much. I felt like different words that you said had like a punch or impact in it in a certain type of way. Because just like you said in so many words, we feel justified to hold on to anger, resentment, unforgiveness because a certain person um did something to us and they hurt us. Um, that's how we may perceive it or portray it. And we feel like I need to hold on to this to continue to feed the anger and the resentment and a bitterness that I am like maybe even feeling out sometimes, whether knowingly or unknowingly. Um, I know you also mentioned love as well. Do you feel like someone will have the capacity to forgive somebody else if they themselves um have not received genuine love before?
SPEAKER_02Jesus, that is a deep question. Um when love is not portrayed correctly, it's definitely difficult to forgive. I can say that. Um, whenever you don't receive love correctly, especially in formative years, when you don't receive it correctly from a mother figure, from a father figure, from those in leadership roles that should represent the Lord Jesus Christ in any type of way, because let's think of it. Um the Lord Jesus Christ should have been represented, or God our father should have been represented in some leadership role. When we look at the Bible, we look at scriptures like honor your father and mother, scriptures like honor those in authority. Why? Because um God is an authority figure, and also he's an authority figure that we can trust because he shows us attributes of trustworthiness, he shows us attributes of care, he shows us attributes of nurture, he shows us attributes of someone that can be trusted, shows us attributes of someone that you can be safe with. And when those attributes of safety is broken through offense, broken through betrayal, then that is difficult. And so when you see that even in childhood traumas where a father has left, a mother mistreats that individual, then that brokenness distorts their view of what leadership can look like. It distorts their view of what healthy relationship can look like. And so it definitely um does not help when people say, Oh, I can't forgive that person because that person um hurt me in such a way where if I forgive them, I don't even trust them to be able to bring them back into my life in a way that I feel safe. And so when we think of forgiveness, we think, oh, I'm letting them back in. What if they hurt me again? What if they betray my trust again? You feel what I'm saying? And so what happens is we think, oh, I'm letting them back in. But let me caution you and say this forgiveness does not mean bringing access back. I'll say that one more time. Forgiveness does not mean allowing access. You can forgive, you can release the debt, you can release the resentment, and still operate in a place where there's boundaries. The problem is we don't know what boundaries look like. Let me go back to Genesis. God said, Hey Adam, where are you? After Adam sinned, and he's like, Okay, since you sinned, I need to go ahead and put some boundaries. Since you ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, now I have to make sure that you don't eat of the tree of life. So I have to put a boundary, I have to get you out of the Garden of Eden because if you eat that tree of life, you're gonna be in a fallen state forever. He put a boundary. And so for us, whenever we forgive, yeah, I'm gonna forgive you. Yeah, I'm gonna release the payment, I'm gonna release that resentment, but I gotta have a boundary so that I don't put you in a space where you can hurt me again, so that you don't put me in a space where you can do damage again.
SPEAKER_00That is so true. I know I've heard a few times where people say or feel like boundaries. Um, if they're put up maybe against them or just at all, they feel like it's a form of punishment. Um, rather than looking at it as a form of protection, you know, not just for the other person involved, but just as you mentioned, that's it's for us, you know, so we don't get into a more worse state or get into more harm than we probably experienced already. So I think that is so key to even look at in that manner. Because sometimes when we go through these things, uh, let's say different situations where we've been hurt really bad, um, betrayed, stabbed in the back, different things, we may start to adapt a mental mentality to where we feel like everything in everybody is against us. And it can be really hard to recognize the things that are in place to benefit us, to help us heal, um, to help us get into a place of receiving restoration. Do you have like any type of insight on how one can probably get into a place where, of course, they may be hurt, hurting, maybe even bleeding out a little bit, but get into a place where they can start to identify the boundaries that are in place that are meant to help them and not hurt them, and to get into a place where they can trust again, even if it's trusting themselves.
SPEAKER_03Yikes, that is loaded.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would say um one of the biggest boundaries would definitely be getting in a place of safe community. Oftentimes, whenever there has been a breach of security, betrayal, an offense, what tends to happen is we end up putting ourselves in isolation. Oftentimes in a space of Christendom, and especially for some of us that are um very deep, very spiritual and uh prophetic, uh, we tend to um mistake isolation with separation. The uh Lord is isolating me, you know, he's uh uh getting me in a space of isolation where I can just uh be with him. No, what happened is you got hurt, and so you isolated yourself. But let me help you out. Um, if you get in that space too long, you're gonna find yourself in a dark place and you're gonna find yourself in depression to where you can't come out of it. So let me just balance the conversation out and let me uh give you a little bit of grounding. Isolation is not God's best. Now, there are times when you can find yourself going in solitude where you can spend time in the presence of God. But even in that space of solitude, you do still need safe community that can anchor you, that can get you into a space of healing so that they can help you see, okay, what happened when you did get in a place of hurt, when you did get up in a place of that betrayal, so that you can see through the lens of the Holy Spirit what it is that God was trying to protect you from and where he's trying to shield you to. Because in moments of separation, he's not just trying to separate you from something or from someone, he's trying to separate you to a purpose. In the Bible, whenever God separated someone, he was separating them for a purpose. We always like to talk about how we're anointed and we're set apart, but we're anointed and set apart for a specific use and for a specific assignment. What isolation does is it separates you from something so that you're not effective, so that you're not able to do everything that God has called you to do, and you're not able to be all that God has called you to be, and now you have no purpose.
SPEAKER_00That is you touched on something um very important because as you said, I've seen many times, and even that sometimes I've I've fallen into this myself, um, getting into a place of isolation. There are times where it is God-led, and sometimes we stay in that space a little bit too long. And as you said, we can get into a state of depression, um, adapting these uh thoughts like I don't need anybody, or um, they're talking about me and I'm gonna stay right here so the Lord can strengthen me by himself. And we don't realize that we're missing out on the very key components that he's trying to bring us into in some of the healthier communities, because there are some things that we cannot do and get to on our own. And of course, you know, we are spirit, but there's also things in our lives where we get to do life with others, um, get strengthened in a way because we can't see our blind spots. There are some things that are behind us that we can't see. Um, and we need the help and support of healthy community because there are people that have been in our shoes, in the situations that we find ourselves in that can help us go over a bridge, walk certain steps, blueprints, or whatever it may be, that they have already overcome, and maybe even help to you know, help us to avoid certain paths that we don't have to go because they share their wisdom.
SPEAKER_02But uh I want to add this Jesus was in solitude, but also um he was in community, so much so that he was in a community of 12. So if he was in a community of 12, um, he gave us a blueprint of how community was so important. So much so that even in his lowest moment, he took 12 with him and said, Hey, I'm gonna need y'all to go ahead and pray with me. Now they dropped the ball, but he still knew that it was important for 12 to intercede with him. Now, even though they dropped the ball and scattered, he still needed them. But there was one that was that remained with him, that was John at the cross. Now, get this. Even at the cross, he still forgave. He said, Father, forgive them for they knew not what they do. So that shows me that forgiveness is an act. And when we mention that definition, that definition to forgive is a verb, so it is an action. So forgiveness is an act. Now the healing process does take time, but that forgiveness is an action of a moment. So the problem is we think, oh, forgiveness takes time, oh forgiveness um is a process. No, forgiveness happens in that one moment. Now the healing process takes uh a process, it takes time. But once you forgive, it's settled at that very moment. Jesus showed us that on the cross. But he showed us that even in that moment on the cross, he had that one person in John, but not only that, but he also had his mother there and he also had another follower with him. And so the problem is we're trying to do everything by ourselves, but we need to lean on uh our people, we need to lean on our community.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely, and I love that you um brought up that example too, because it also maybe made me consider it doesn't matter what your title is or how high you think you are, how you place yourself, you still need your community, and you yourself still get to receive uh forgiveness and go through the process as well. So just because your title may be super high, you are not exempt from the process.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if if it's something that you feel like you want to continue running away from because you don't want to appear in the public eye a certain type of way, you don't want to be perceived as weak, even in the body of Christ, because you feel like you shouldn't need certain types of help, you're missing out, and not even allowing space for the Lord to even give you a redemptive story. Really quick, how do you feel like unforgiveness has impacted the church overall? Um, even families.
SPEAKER_02How has it impacted the church overall? How has it impacted families? Um, what can we talk about? How has it impacted people? Let's see, let's talk about um church hurt, let's talk about church splits, let's talk about all the different churches that started out of uh church hurt, um, out of um division, out of uh, I mean, when we see the um effect of the body of Christ right now as a whole, um, a lot of the stuff that we're seeing right now is because of unforgiveness. If you look at a lot of the churches that you see, okay, you live in Columbus, Ohio. About 75% of the churches that you see in your city right now, I bet you most of them started because of unforgiveness.
SPEAKER_01Eee. That's tough.
SPEAKER_02They started because someone got offended at something. And they were like, you know what? Forget this. I'm going to start my own ministry. And unfortunately, once they started it, they had a good little run. But after a while, that root of bitterness, that root of resentment, that root of pride and lust started to creep up. And then that ministry ended up dying out and ended up shutting down because that pride and that unforgiveness started to surfacing up. And so now the body of Christ is at a disadvantage. But all of it could have been resolved had there been some unforgiveness, had there been some forgiveness, rather, had God really dealt with the matters of that individual's heart. Because watch this there are some people that actually have the genuine call of God on their life to be able to preach the word of God, to preach the gospel, um, to operate in ministry. But the problem is because of that root of bitterness and unforgiveness, and what it is that they've seen at a Previous church, that root there has sprouted out in bitterness and unforgiveness. I've been working in deliverance for quite some time. Now, I'm I wouldn't consider myself a deliverance minister, but because of the magnitude of what my call is, I have to operate in deliverance. One of the top things that I see whenever I operate in deliverance is resentment and unforgiveness. And that is a big stronghold on a lot of people. Like I can call out certain roots, I can call out oppression, I can call out fear, I can call out all these different things. It'll come out instantly. But when I hit that unforgiveness, no, I ain't coming out. Okay, now we gotta do some work. Then I gotta lead them through. Hey, there's uh certain people that you gotta forgive. Matter of fact, there's about five people that you need to call out by name and you gotta forgive them. Call it out by word of knowledge, and they start um forgiving them. Even kicking and screaming, they start forgiving them, and that thing manifests itself when it comes out. And watch this, these are gifted people, these are prophetic people, worship leaders, all these different be but they are hindered in their ministry because of bitterness and because of resentment and unforgiveness. And so God has to really do an inward work in the heart as far as forgiving people and sometimes forgiving self, because a lot of people, you know, they they know better, they know the word, been in church all their lives, but they feel as though because of what we have allowed ourselves to get involved in, because of certain sins that we've um allowed ourselves to get into and certain things that we've seen, it's like we disqualify ourselves from moving forward. And it's like, no, there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. So we have to allow ourselves to be free. And for those that are dealing with church hurt, let me tell you something. It's okay to heal, and it's okay to be free anyway. Why do I say that? Y'all remember uh King David when he uh got in with Bathsheba, right? Um, he got in with Bathsheba, and by the way, Bathsheba agreed to do it with David. Okay, yeah, she agreed with her, with him. And um, your Bible says that uh David ends up having uh Uriah uh killed on the battlefield. And um after Nathan um tells David about himself, um David says these famous words as he's praying and repenting um in uh Psalm 51, he says, Against you, you only have I sinned. This is David talking to the Lord and done this evil in your sight, that you may be found just when you speak, and blameless when you judge. These are the words that David is saying to God. He said, Against you, God, against you only have I sinned. And so for those that are dealing with church hurt because of certain leaders and of certain traumas that you've seen amongst leadership and amongst people in church that have misrepresented God to you, and you keep having these different conversations in your head of what you would say to different leaders, you can stop having those different conversations in your head. You're not gonna have them. It's okay to heal anyway, because if they don't have that testimony in them of against you and against you only have I sinned, they're not gonna be able to get it right with you anyway. They're not gonna get it right with you anyway. On my Bible college friends, hey, you're not gonna have that conversation with that uh leader, you're not gonna have that conversation with that pastor, you're not. It's okay to heal anyway, you're not going to get that apology. How many times do we get people that prophesy and say uh they're gonna come back to you with an apology? But what happens if they don't come back to you with that apology? Jesus went up, was on the cross and he said, Father, forgive them, for they knew not what they do. He didn't get an apology.
SPEAKER_01Some people are holding their breath for an apology. Dang.
SPEAKER_02Did we see anywhere in that text where the Pharisees and the Sadducees came up to the cross and said, Oh, I'm sorry, Jesus, that we did this to you. No, they kept coming with insults. But you said you're the Messiah, right? Come off of that cross. You said you're the Messiah, right? You said you were gonna uh rebuild the temple after three days. Sometimes you have to forgive and you have to release the debt even when you don't get the apology that you say you're owed. Oh my gosh, with your prideful self. Which, by the way, let me remind you: all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. There's certain sins that you're still committing to this day. And God's looking at you like, how many sins have you committed? How many times have you disobeyed me and you still haven't repented? You still don't have a godly sorrow about. And you looking at somebody else and saying they owe you an apology, and you barely thank me every morning for when I give you breath in your body just so that you can wake up. It's okay to heal anyway. But anyway, um, so yeah, there's a lot of division, there's a lot of broken marriages, there's a lot of broken homes, there's a lot of kids without fathers in the homes, there's a lot of daughters that are having um issues with their mothers in the homes, um, a lot of gang violence, a lot of sex and human trafficking, all because of the root of unforgiveness. If we can get that right, it will definitely aid in a lot of these different issues that we're seeing in our community. Listen, we have a lot of corruption, even in the highest offices in our land, because of this one issue right here. A lot of the issues that we're seeing in our world is because of this one issue right here.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_02The issue of the human heart. But this is one of the biggest issues.
SPEAKER_00And it runs so deep. I have to bring up, of course, those who may be who who's gonna listen and say, Well, I was essayed or I experienced, you know, molestation, all these different things, and say you don't understand the pain that I have to carry from the person that assaulted me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you don't understand how they ruined my life. I can't forgive them, you know? Um and does this really apply to me?
SPEAKER_00What would you what are some things that you would say to that person um who feels like they cannot go on and they they have to walk around with this pain because they experience a certain type of pain?
SPEAKER_02Um, one thing I would say is it is not your fault. What you experienced with that traumatic experience was not your fault. Um it was definitely traumatic. Um it should not have happened, but it was not your fault. Um, let me free you in that aspect. No, I don't understand. However, what I can say is God is still a healer, He is still one that makes all things new. Um, but I can also say this. Um the issue with um sexual lust definitely runs deep. Sexual perversion definitely runs deep. And what I do see from the outside looking in is that that perversion piece, it's very layered and it runs in a cycle. And what I see is um people that are the victimizers, they normally have an issue where they've either been touched themselves or they've been introduced to um perversion at an early age, whatever happened uh in their formative years, they've been introduced to it. Um, and so once that cycle kicks in, it's like you you you can't get you can't break free from it on your own strength. You have to go through deliverance. It's only by the power of the Holy Spirit that you break through that. But you have to decide and make the choice to be able to break through that.
SPEAKER_01That is so true.
SPEAKER_02It's a choice, um, and also it's a choice to be able to heal. It's a choice, and here's the deal forgiveness is a choice. Um, and so it's not a matter of I I can't, it's a matter of, do you want to? Do you want to be made whole?
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_02And um, so I say it's not your fault, number one. Um, and I'll say this Jesus sees all, he knows all, and he was going through it with you. Good God Almighty, he was going through it with you, he wasn't far from you when that happened. And so my prayer is that as you make the choice to forgive, he gives you the strength to be able to face it head on, unpack what happened, and you're able to find the strength to go through that healing process and break off every time from that moment, break off every time from that offense, break off every time from that um experience so that you can fully heal. Um, because yeah, that cycle has to break. Because that um perversion, it really is a cycle that has to break off of a lot of people. Um, forgiveness is for you, it's not for the person per se. Yes, it frees the person from the the debt, but at the same time, it frees you. Um, because again, when we talk about holding on to uh the hurt, you know, we feel like we're entitled to it. It's like, oh, that person did this to me. Um, so I'm entitled to feeling how I feel. I'm entitled to um this hurt, I'm entitled to this pain. But the problem is you're holding on to the pain, feeling as though um you're doing uh yourself a favor. But it's like, but the problem is you're still hurt. The problem is you're still dealing with the anxiety, you're still dealing with that struggle while that person is still living their life. That person is probably still hurting somebody else. You feel what I'm saying? And so nothing is getting resolved with you holding on to, you know, that hurt, holding on to that pain. When God says, I have life and life more abundantly, but it only comes by letting that go, fully releasing it. And I'm not just talking about just getting over it, because a lot of times we, you know, move on and we get over it and uh move on with life, but sometimes we have to really unpack that thing and fully release it to the Lord and allow him to work that healing process out day by day. Um I've been there, you know, when some now not necessarily the um sexual assault piece, but uh just with the betrayal, just with the rejection piece, um, seeing people that, you know, have rejected me, seeing people that have uh broken my heart, all those different things, and having to be in worship services with them, the same church services with them, and um what have you, and still having to worship through it, still having to serve through it, and be like, man, why am I still here? Why am I in the same room with them? See, one of the signs that you know you're still, you know, struggling with the healing process or even struggling with forgiving is if you're in the same room with that person and you still feel away, it I've been there.
SPEAKER_00Right, me too.
SPEAKER_02And um, it's like, man, I thought I thought I got over that. You feel what I'm saying? And so you have to be able to allow God to work that healing process in you and through you. And one thing that really helped me through it was worshiping the Lord. Um, when I tell you worship really saved my life on multiple occasions, because what worship does is it really gets to the matter of the heart, and it really allows God to purge some things out of you so that He can really do the necessary work and the necessary transformation in you. You know, get the pride out of you, uh, get the um bitterness out of you so that whenever you can, you know, see a person that have done harm and have done damage, you can say, you know what, it's okay, I release that. You can go your way, you can be like Jesus and say, Hey, uh, I don't hold it against you, go and sin no more. You can say, like Joseph with his brothers, hey, take the bag of money, go and make sure that my father is okay, right? And so, yeah, uh, but um, God sees it, he was with you the entire time. Um, and here's how you know he was with you the entire time. You went through it and you still lived. You're still alive today. And um, he's going to bring you through every other trial that um you'll go through the rest of your life. So um that's what I would say in regard to that. Um, you're going to heal through it properly.
SPEAKER_00That was powerful. Um, especially in acknowledging, you know, of course, you don't understand everything, but you still see the person, you know. Um and I think that's very important that the validation piece and empathizing um at the same time. Um, I wish I had my notes in front of me. Um, because as I was like kind of thinking on this topic, y'all don't stone me. But there is this movie that I watched when I was younger, and I recently watched it again to kind of take some notes. And it is, I think it's called what is it? It's Kiriku, if you guys have ever seen it. Um, and it's I think Kata by the Sorceress. And there is a woman who became a sorceress from holding on to pain. Um and he, the child at the time, he just kept asking people in the village, like, why is she so mean and evil? Why is she so mean and evil? Um, and then his mother sent him to one of the wise men in the in the mountain. And she said, he will give you the answers for all of your questions because he had many of them. He was very curious. Uh, and he was also curious as to why things were in a state that they were. Um, because the villagers were accustomed to a certain thing, and you know, that's how it was. So eventually he made his way to the mountains and he asked, Why is Kataba the sorceress so mean and evil? Um, and if I can recall correctly, one of the things that was mentioned is because the pain that was inflicted upon her by men.
SPEAKER_02And when I say men, no, you're fine. I'll lose my English on this podcast. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Listen, you're fine.
SPEAKER_00But um when when he said that inflicted upon men, he's not talking about men as a mankind, he's talking about men, um males, right? And doing a little bit more research, I found that that inflicted pain could have possibly been as, you know, sexual assault, that type of thing. So they the people in the village were also afraid of her because they believed that, you know, any man that came to her, she turned uh she killed them or she ate them. But really she turned them into objects of um that were submitted to her and served her. The sorceress hated children, she hated women, and she hated men. And Kiriku um was like, okay, what's going on? The the wise men said that it's the pain was stuck in her as a thorn in her back. Um, and the child, Kiriku, was like, why doesn't she just take it out? The wise man said, because the thorn is too deep in her back and she cannot get it out by herself. And Kirikou was just keep asking questions, and he was like, Okay, why doesn't somebody help her? And the wise men said, because she doesn't have any friends to help her. So she was also is touching on so many things we talked about. She's also in the space of isolation, she's also thriving in a sense, because if people are afraid of her, she has a new sense of power thriving off of pain. But she's still in pain and she's still hurting. And it was also mentioned that she doesn't, she didn't want the thorn removed because she would experience some of the most excruciating pain that she has ever experienced in her life. Meaning that in your process of forgiving, it's also, you may also find yourself in a space where it's just like, okay, I'm gonna have to face some of this pain again. You're living it in a sense. But you won't truly get the healing that you need and that you desire for yourself unless you uncover those hurt spaces again. Instead of letting them become even more infected underneath because you just put a band-aid on top. So what he did was after he got Kiriku got all the information from the wise man in the mountain, he made a plan to get it out the thorn out of her back. He executed the plan and he did it. He was so small where he can jump on her back and he got the thorn out with his teeth. And yes, she experienced the excruciating pain. Yes, she did scream and holler. You can't even see the veins in her face, whatever it was. But here's the thing before I get to the next part. She went through the forest and everything was dying as she walked past. She was very beautiful on the outside, gorgeous and stunning. And she also wore some of the gold pieces that she forced the villagers to bring to her. But everything was dying. But when the thorn was taken out, um and she experienced all this pain, it was like a peace and a silence because I could see that she was able to breathe now, that the thorn was gone. She now also has somebody, even though everybody else was like, She's evil, she's evil, which she's done many evil things. Um, somebody was like, I'm gonna help her get this thorn out. After that, do you know that there were flowers and everything started to grow around her, even more beautiful than it already was before? And she was like, I'm free now. Indeed, you are, and then she said, I know he uh Kiriku, he actually transformed into a man. He had a conversation with her first, and then he transformed into a man, and he said, Let's go back to the to the village because my people know how to celebrate. She said, Well, let's not go there immediately, let's not go back immediately, because she wanted to soak up the moment. So eventually they went to the village, and when I tell you they Saw her, they was running and screaming because they were scared. They knew her past. They knew her ways. They knew known her as mean and evil. They didn't even know that he had transformed in this process as well. So after they did find out that she no longer had her powers as an evil sorceress, they wanted to kill her. And eventually the wise men came with all of the men that had been taken over time. And they said, Kiriku is not lying. She has been transformed and changed. You get to forgive her. They had to go through the they get the decision from all of her, too.
SPEAKER_02He said you get to forgive her.
SPEAKER_00I don't know if he said get, but I'm saying get. But he did mention forgiveness for her. You have to forgive her. Isn't that something? The person that called, listen, she was known as being evil and wicked, evil and mean. And even he, knowing her background, said you have to forgive her. He's telling the truth. She didn't even kill the men, she let y'all believe a certain narrative because it also fueled her power. And so, with her healing, also impacted a healing for a village because the families were reconnected again, and the men that were gone were back again. And so this is a story that came to mind recently when I thought about forgiveness, because it touched on so many things that you talked about, especially addressing the part where the pain can be so deep where it's like we can't even touch it ourselves. We need help, we need support, and also forgiving ourselves in that process as well. Because we forget we can forgive everybody else. Sometimes the the one person that we don't forgive is ourselves. And we need to crucify ourselves every day to remind us of what we have done. But that doesn't have to be your portion anymore. It doesn't even have to be in your story. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02And even to the point of seeing uh that person's vehicle, and was like, listen, I want to do something terrible to that vehicle. But and and afterwards, Holy Spirit convicts me like, no, don't you dare do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That ain't right. It was a form of manipulation. How can I manipulate the situation to do you know something evil so that they can feel what I felt when they broke my heart? And so what you were describing about that story was that um lady was allowing everyone to feel what it is that she was feeling with that thorn in her back. And so what people do when they have unforgiveness and resentment and bitterness is they're hurt, but everyone else is feeling the hurt that they felt.
SPEAKER_00That is so true.
SPEAKER_02That's what that is. But the underlying issue is they're trying to get the offender to feel. But the problem is the offender don't even feel it. They're going on living their merry life, doing whatever the heck they want to do. Again, going back to the cross. Jesus is on this cross, right? He he's taking all the heads. He is he is literally cannot breathe. He has to go up on the cross, gasping for air, as much air as he possibly can. And the phrase and Sadducees is just laughing and just kicking it, having a good time, dividing his clothes, casting lots for his clothes and all that. Um and they just going about their way. Watch this on the Passover, by the way.
SPEAKER_03Oh nah. Annual Jewish feast, an annual holiday.
SPEAKER_02Wow. And so, but all the while he's like, um, God, have mercy on them. Don't, don't, don't, um, please have mercy on them. It it's it's all good. They don't know what they do, they don't really understand the magnitude of what they don't understand that I'm fulfilling prophecy right now. Your forgiveness is a fulfillment of prophecy that you don't even realize. Some of the prophetic words that has been lingering over your head, your forgiveness is going to fulfill that prophecy. Anyway, I'll leave that alone. Um, so um, but yeah, that pain that you feel, you're trying to get someone else to feel that same exact pain. That's witchcraft. Oh, that's manipulation, that's sorcery. But the moment you release that pain, and yes, you're going to probably relive some of the pain that you've experienced because you have to unpack that in order to get to the healing and the wholeness. But once you do, there's going to be such a healing, not just for you, but it's going to be a healing for others. Because as you share the testimony, there's going to be someone else that probably have gone through the same thing that you've gone through, and they're like, wait a minute, that's exactly what I experienced. Now I know how to get through what I'm going through right now. Now I have the blueprint in order to experience the healing. Hence why they overcame them by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of our testimony.
SPEAKER_03So good.
SPEAKER_02See, us black folk have been operating in witchcraft for centuries. Come on. But the blueprints of the actual healing and breaking the curse is in I forgive you. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So you tell me we don't have to do a million steps first.
SPEAKER_02No, a lot of kingdom principles that feels ABC-ish is really the most powerful things that the believer can if we simply just apply it, we will literally be further along in life. Literally.
SPEAKER_01Is there anything that you want to release in this space before we kind of wrap up?
SPEAKER_02Um, I just want to say this was good. This was definitely a much-needed teaching. I do um pray that um the ears of those that listen, those that watch, are open and receptive um to what has been said in um future conversations uh that will be had. Um at the end of the day, the foundation that is being laid is uh the foundation of Jesus, who is the chief cornerstone. Um the reason why I kept hinging on Jesus uh is because he is the blueprint for um every conversation uh that is being had, because at the end of the day, it's his conversation. Um the conversation about forgiveness, it's his conversation. Um, the conversations of healing, the conversations of um mental health, mental awareness, the conversations of relationships, the conversations of um financial literacy, the conversations of whatever conversation that we have, Jesus is the one that's orchestrated in the conversation. And so um he's the foundation that we lay. Um he said, Upon this rock, I'll build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And so um my encouragement for anyone that listens to um this one um is that um we get to a place where um we can forgive a bit more easily. Uh, I wouldn't say easily because it is gonna be difficult, but um if we can do it uh just a little bit more, um there will be a whole lot more healing, um, not just emotional, but um also physical, because a lot of the ailments that we have in our physical bodies, uh some of it um is at the root of uh that unforgiveness. Um and so it is my prayer that um we have a bit more of a better understanding as a result of this conversation. Um, and you don't have to just take it from our um lens or our perspective. There's a lot of different um people that are having the same conversation. Um, you could definitely do your research, you could definitely hear from other uh great men and women of God um that are having this similar conversation. Um but uh it is my prayer um that um what you've heard um does uh give you a little bit better insight and does give you um a little bit more healing. Um that is definitely my prayer. Um and so um I pray that um God continues to strengthen you. I pray that God continues to um encourage you in your journey, um, and that God continues to sharpen um your discernment, that as you do forgive, that you set the necessary boundaries and um that you um ease yourself into um safe community um so that you can continue to mature and continue to grow um in your walk with the Lord going forward. Um, so that's it as of this point. And um, I love this. Uh this is um awesome.
SPEAKER_00This was so this is beyond good. Um, and thank you, John, for you know, coming on, being the first guest, and also being a blessing to not just those who will listen, but for me as well, because this you my my spirit is definitely charged. Um, and it's really empowering and inspiring to do life with people who are on the journey of living for Christ and also prioritizing wellness, um, wholeness, laying these types of foundations that can carry across generations. And so thank you for blessing us with your wisdom, uh, your teaching, because I can tell you got the word deep down. Okay. And so I just I just thank God and pray, yeah. Pray that God continues to multiplies you and expands you. Um, yeah, and just set you ablaze everywhere that He has you go. So thank you. And um to all that's listening, hope you take notes. Um, don't let just just go in one ear and out the other. This is valuable insight and keys to help you heal on your journey. And as I typically say, have patience with yourself, love on yourselves, and love on others. All right, until next time. Hey, if you found yourself wondering who is Jesus, or thinking to yourself, I would like to get to know him more, I want to be closer to him.
SPEAKER_01I would like to walk hand in hand with him.
SPEAKER_00I invite you to agree with this prayer. So, Father God, I thank you for this very day. For you knew the time and the day that this individual would have an interest in come into close proximity with you and to get to know you. I thank you, Lord, that because you love us so much that you actually died on the cross for our sins, and you rose from the grave on a third day with all power and authority in your hands. I thank you that it didn't end with you dying on the cross, but you also rose, letting us know that we have life in you and life more abundantly. So today, Lord, we acknowledge that yes, we are sinners, we don't condemn ourselves, but we acknowledge that we fall short, and with that, we acknowledge and proclaim our dependence on you, and we accept you and invite you as Lord of our lives. We have free will, but we also align our will with yours. We ask you to teach us your ways, show us your path and teach us, lead us in the narrow path that you have set before us, so that we may also serve you and worship you in spirit and in truth. And because we have new life with you, we also receive, Father, the gift of your Holy Spirit, and also let the fruit of the Spirit be evident in the lives of those who shall receive this prayer on this day. So, Father God, I also pray that they be connected to safe and healthy communities that will help them continue to lay the foundations of this faith journey and to also grow and apply that they may be disciples in you, not being afraid, not continuing to do things the old way, but to do things in you with this new life. So, God, I thank you for life and life more abundantly. I thank you for your love, I thank you for your compassion, and I thank you for the transformation that will take place in the lives and the life of the individual and people that are listening today. So, Father, wrap your arms around them and meet them where they are, supplying all of their needs according to your riches and glory in Christ Jesus. Bring them to a place where they can learn your uncompromised and unadulterated word of God. In the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. If you are someone who would like to continue to support the growth and the mission of what we are doing here at the Foundations Relay, I encourage you to give a donation at buymeacoffee.comslash Tatiana L M S W. It doesn't take much. You don't have to give all of your life savings, but whatever you feel led to give, I invite you and welcome you to do so. So thank you in advance.